Intro and Dealing with bad attitude from 4 year old

[Other Mother]

Hello,

I am the mother of an only child, adopted from Korea in 2008. I used to lurk here quite a bit a few years ago, and have come back as we may be considering another adoption sometime in the next year. I have always enjoyed reading the parenting advice and discussions on this board. There is such a variety of opinions and ideas on this board much of which I've applied to my own parenting. And that is why I am finally posting a question!

My son just turned 4 and he has a bit of an attitude problem. Whenever he wants to do something and we say no, he scrunches up his face and says, "I'll NEVER get to do it again!" He is extremely fatalistic! If he asks to go outside, and we say he can go out after lunch, he will say, "Awww, I'll never get to go outside again!" and slump to the floor, or "Forget it, I'll just stay inside forever!" We try to stay patient and just repeat that he will get to go outside after lunch. However, this morning, I lost my patience. He has stickers from preschool that he sticks onto a paper tooth every time he brushes his teeth. He wanted to stick more than one after brushing his teeth this morning, and I said his teacher said to put only one sticker each time. He took the stickers, and said, "Fine, I'm going to throw them all away then!" I told him he needed to stop with the bad attitude and if he said it again, I would make him really throw those stickers away. He put the stickers away without comment, but I don't think that solved the general attitude issue.

I should note that he has attachment, sensory and trauma issues, but I can't really tell if this attitude is normal 4 year old or something else. Thoughts on that and ideas on how to respond to the little guy would be very much appreciated!!

[Rich MOMents]

Edited after a peek at your blog...

Hi,

Have you found local support/resources for dealing with the attachment issues? I see you've done neuro reorg that seems to be helping some of the sensory, sleep, issues, etc. Your response will help me to better answer your question.

Thanks!
Cyn

[stnkyferit]

This is going to sound reaaaaalllllllllly ridiculous....but does he watch TV? My little darling picked up, literally the same verbiage, from a Disney Channel (Jr.) show...everything now is doom and gloom when I say no..."Oh now I am never going to be able to have a snack"..."Oh now I am never going to be able to have dessert"..."Oh now I am never going to be able to <insert whatever 4/5 year old travesty here". Im not there with you so I am not hearing the inflection in his voice...so Im sorry if this seems trivial, but again, I read it, and the words are identical...

[Other Mother]

Hi Cyn,

We don't have local attachment resources/support - we met a few times over the last few years with our former pastor's wife who is currently a family therapist but used to work with children with attachment issues. They live a couple hours away, and we don't see them very often. Maybe once a year. We haven't seen her in over a year, but she is incredibly supportive and helpful when we do see her. I have read many books on attachment parenting, and the one that my DH and I (try to) follow most closely is Karyn Purvis's Connected Child. I am also a member of a couple online groups but didn't post there b/c this seemed to be such a minor issue (though it is driving me increasingly crazy!) Please feel free to let me know if you think I'm wrong! One of the hardest things for me is figuring out if his behaviors are typical for his age or something else. We can't afford to do 2 therapies at once, so I thought if he still needs it after NR, then we will find an AT. Though I really hope we don't have to...

Hi Stnkferit,

That is not ridiculoust at all! Ds does watch t.v. though it's mostly PBS as we got rid of our cable a while ago to save $$. He still does watch shows on the Disney website once in a while though, mostly Imagination Movers. Do you know which show she got it from? How did you respond? I'm getting so frustrated with it. Today I threatened to put him in time-out/time-in for it, and he actually didn't have the attitude until the end of the day when I was getting him ready for bed. I will feel silly if something as easy as a time-out is the solution b/c I have been dealing with it for about a month! I guess we'll see!

Thanks so much to both of you!

[stnkyferit]

I *think it may be "Jake and the Neverland Pirates" on Disney....Movers (DS likes too) doesnt have that...

[SoCaliGirl]

Yes, it sounds to me like something from television too. I have heard those sayings from PBS that my kids watch, too.

I would just stay calm and not continue to engage the conversation. If he says he'll never go outside again, then just reiterate casually that you'll go out after lunch and continue on your business. Four year olds are masters at button pushing and histrionics. YES, I have a four year old with some pretty serious sensory issues and spectrum behaviors, and severe language delays. He was adopted and is very sensitive. My response is the same--we'll go out after lunch, and now let's have something to eat. It has really taken me a long time not to let him engage me--I used to get really inflamed. He has stopped trying and transitions much easier now that I just don't continue to rehash it when he says/does these things. He knows that I'm moving on and that he needs to catch up.

The other thing you said, that reminded me, is the slump. Two characters on TV I've seen do the slump (or where they hang their heads and arms hang to the side like Frankenstein when they walk all dejected) and my son will do that when he's told no, saying "aww" or something similar. Sometimes he will just curl up and fall too. Again, I don't engage it because he is copping an attitude when he says things like "I'm going to throw them away then" or "I'll never get to do it again." My oldest (bio) did it too, it probably really feels like that to them, but they are button pushing when they say that. I think it's totally normal.

Oh, and you probably already found that when you do give a lot of attention to it, or are sympathetic without giving the child what he wants, then it's not very helpful, either. They will accept your love and hugs but as soon as they start to look/feel better, they are trying to get what they originally wanted again. That's why I don't engage it--it doesn't really help, they just want what they want. In fact, they thrive on stability, consistency, and routine, and I've found that when I give in and my son finds that the rule doesn't really stick, it only adds to his insecurity because my response wasn't what he expected and planned for. Just another take on it.

[JJ's Mom]

I think my preference would be a trial of ignoring it, as in go about whatever you are doing cheerfully without even acknowledging it. So he says he's gonna throw his stickers in the trash if he doesn't get his way...pay no attention and he'll either put them away and be done with it, or he'll throw them away - - in which case they are now GONE.

What is the secondary gain (or what is his motivation) for this behavior - I don't know, but there's a reason he keeps doing it. I would not, in general, say that this is something 4-year-olds are otherwise known for. It is possible that it ties in with his attachment process in that he does get some sort of feedback or reassurance from you correcting what he has said. However, even if it is attachment related, I would still proceed with completely ignoring it since (for me/IMO) entertaining it is not a positive attachment-building mechanism...it would seem (speaking only from my personal experiences), the more reaction he receives, even if negative, the more likely he will do it again. In the meantime, increase those attachment-building activities (talking, playing together, reading, whatever else he likes) which are positive in nature.

My kids were funny a couple of times when I decided to ignore behaviors like this. I'd keep doing whatever I was doing as if nothing had happened, and pretty soon they'd call out (using your sticker example), "Mooom, didn't you hear what I said? I'm gonna throw these away...?" .....Me: Ooooh! Okay! Well, when you're done throwing them away, make sure you wash your hands because it's time for lunch!". They were a little perplexed and didn't keep it up long.

[SoCaliGirl]

My kids were funny a couple of times when I decided to ignore behaviors like this. I'd keep doing whatever I was doing as if nothing had happened, and pretty soon they'd call out (using your sticker example), "Mooom, didn't you hear what I said? I'm gonna throw these away...?" .....Me: Ooooh! Okay! Well, when you're done throwing them away, make sure you wash your hands because it's time for lunch!". They were a little perplexed and didn't keep it up long.

This is exactly what I do, too. I'll even say, well, you sure can cry while you're picking up toys, and as soon as you're done, we'll go do xyz. They don't get the attention they seek and might whine for another minute, but generally knock it off. My daughter will even go so far as to throw herself down and scream, then jump back up, smiling, for hugs like she got it under control. She ALWAYS gets hugs for that!

[ZoeKLT]

Whenever he wants to do something and we say no, he scrunches up his face and says, "I'll NEVER get to do it again!" He is extremely fatalistic! If he asks to go outside, and we say he can go out after lunch, he will say, "Awww, I'll never get to go outside again!" and slump to the floor, or "Forget it, I'll just stay inside forever!"

You mean ALL kids don't do this???

My kids have all done this at some point in time. I think it's a bit ridiculous and I usually make it into a bit of a joke. "Oh, you're right - you're NEVER GOING TO DO IT AGAIN! Ooooooh no!!!" If DH and I really ham it up, the child usually laughs and it's the end of it. I remember when my cousin's kids used to do this and they would say, "And the Academy Award for best performance goes to.........[child's name]." I think it's pretty common.

If, on the other hand, you are talking about the real gut-wrenching sobs that go along with a child thinking that they really missed out on something that they will never get to do again, I take a different approach. Usually, that is caused by lack of sleep and over exhaustion, so other than saying, "oh honey, of course you'll get to ________, the next time [whatever]," I try to sooth them and then move on until they are in a better frame of mind. It's nearly impossible to reason with an exhausted, fatalistic child - so we talk about it again after they have had some sleep/food/whatever.

[duparsmug]

My son just turned 4 and he has a bit of an attitude problem. Whenever he wants to do something and we say no, he scrunches up his face and says, "I'll NEVER get to do it again!" He is extremely fatalistic!

To go along w/others who suggested TV, our guy was/is a fan of "Peanuts" comics, which means stuff like "I'm doomed!" comes out of his mouth all the time.

One other reason I've not worried about this aspect of our guy is that when he responds to a "No" by going on about how "I'll *never* get to do this..." or "I'll *never* get do that...," I'm able to kid him right out of it -- a la, "Yes, you're right, you'll never, ever eat ice cream again." That gets him laughing. If this weren't the case, I can see where I might be wondering if there were more to his attitude than "Peanuts."

Good luck w/your guy.

[ecuador2004]

I have a 4 year old grandson who acts this way at times - but ONLY with his Daddy! I think for him it is testing. Dad tries talking it out and then threats and anything else he can think of. Poor Dad is learning to parent - and this little darling does give him a run for his money.

But - as the Grandparent I can say we have ONLY had to put him in time out once - and now he knows that we really will enforce rules and that was the end for us. I also don't talk to him much about this - I don't think there is any real reason to try to reason out why he can't have the chocolate cookies right now. I tell him once that he needs to eat healthy food first - and then end the conversation. This is something I learned over the years of parenting/step parenting and I wish I had figured this out earlier. I had a step son - and now a DS who both would try to keep the discussion going to wear me down.

As for TV - at one point DGS would say "I am sad". When we would ask why he was sad he would respond "I'm sad because I'm different"????

Finally found that this was from a show on Nick Jr. The Panda was Sad because he was different and he was re-creating this scene from the cartoon!

Now we just play along with the story line and all is well. He is pretty dramatic - and this is coming from the mother of a teen!!!

[Other Mother]

Thank you for the ideas!! I think we will try ignoring first for a week or so - I think that will be easier for us as opposed to making a joke out of it. If no improvement we can try and see if we can joke him out of it. I hate to put him in time-out if there's another way.

[ZoeKLT]

Thank you for the ideas!! I think we will try ignoring first for a week or so - I think that will be easier for us as opposed to making a joke out of it. If no improvement we can try and see if we can joke him out of it. I hate to put him in time-out if there's another way.

I think it's good to remember that in parenting, just as with many things, you need to be authentic to you and your style. We are a playful, joking family - so humor works well for us. If that isn't how you parent, that might feel awkward. My mother, for example, would ignore the behavior vs teasing us because she isn't the joking sort. She had her way and I have mine and both work!

Good luck!!!

[JJ's Mom]

Thank you for the ideas!! I think we will try ignoring first for a week or so - I think that will be easier for us as opposed to making a joke out of it. If no improvement we can try and see if we can joke him out of it. I hate to put him in time-out if there's another way.

One other thought, if this isn't something that he drops quickly (after a trial of any of the above suggestions or something else you come up with) and you suspect it is a deeper or attachment-related thing, I might suggest that you consider avoiding traditional time-out where the child is isolated alone to deal with his/her own bad feelings. Some problems really require drawing close/drawing in...talking through and really trying to understand where it is coming from. Some children will simply seethe with anger and other negative feelings if put in (traditional) time out. Not sure if that's what you're referring to but I thought I'd mention it!

Good luck!

[rockland45]

Wow, so much good information here! And, you're so right about television-it's amazing how kids can imitate what they see on there and you just have no idea! The whole "slump" and overreactions thing reminds me so much of my young niece and nephew. Everything is always the end of the world if you tell them no! So, we usually go along with the idea of ignoring them as well.

Of course, I'm sure it must be difficult to know if your son's attachment issues may be playing into this or not. So, I wonder if you could get some advice from a professional about this? Not necessarily seeing someone long-term, but just a one-time consultation? Because of my time at Focus on the Family, I know they have counselors available by phone to chat with at 1-855-771-HELP (free of charge). So, that might be an option.

You also mentioned that you're a fan of Karyn Purvis' material, and I have to second that! Actually heard her give a talk at one point and she had so much good information to share on this topic. And, I know along with her book she's got some other material you can pull up on the http://www.icareaboutorphans.org website. Focus' website also has some material on handling negative emotions in children at http://www.focusonthefamily.com/parenti ... pment.aspx that might be helpful. So, just FYI!

Well, hang in there! You're in my thoughts and prayers!